Curse

glountz · Jun 29, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

The most telling facts are that rangers aren't used for damage in high level play, and that Ensign agrees that they're underpowered. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant - point to skills like Keen Arrow all you want, Ensign knows the game inside out, and the collection of top players aren't likely to all be wrong.

Ensign is God and the Truth itself.
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I think most people saying bows are balanced also agree that bows aren' t meant for damage.
Yes bow have lower DPS.
And then? Are they underpowered?
Not at all.Because their main role is not to have high DPS.
As well as sins daggers are not there for DPS.
As well as WANDS are not designed for DPS.

Do you want that rangers have the same DPS than a hammer one?
Do you want a wander as powerful as an axe warrior?
If you say yes to this, then we don't have the same idea about balance.

lennymon · Jun 29, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Aggressive Refrain disagrees.

and bows have slower flight time than spears, except for the recurve bow.

greater = longer...

Vorianatriedes · Jun 29, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

You obviously havent experimented enough with a bow. When you are attacking someoen closer to sea level than you, you do way mroe damage and given a good height can easily do twice the damage of a warrior. Hence why Anet suggests rangfers always look for as high a groudn as they can find when ranging.

P.S

I forgot to add also bows have a longer range than spears.

Risa · Jun 29, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Not all professions are designed to simply do pure damage. Why not consider some of the skills on your bar backing up the bow? But, if that doesn't settle it...

Omg!!! Wands are underpowered!1!!one

Electric Friend · Jul 08, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Well, since no one has posted for several days on this topic, it seems that everything that could be said about bows has been said.

Evilsod · Jul 08, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

That or people just got bored of debating because nothing would happen even if everyone did think they were...

Anet won't even fix the obviously gimped Bow Attack skills... why would they bother fixing a now inadquate weapon?

Green Gnight · Jul 11, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

The ranger, like the other original 5 classes, have become weaker with the introduction of new classes. It's what game designers do to keep interest in the game, give goodies to those who spend more money.

I say buff the ranger class, as the others, but don't bring them up to par with the Dervish, not even the Warrior level, just make them "better" at what they do, by putting in a better tracking system.

Wouldn't it be great if the game detected that you were "obstructed" before you took a shot, and moved you just far enough to get a clear shot? Why not shoot your opponent from a hill that is 20 feet from you, rather than running 100 feet away from your opponent and behind a wall to catch them.

Buff the ranger code, not the ranger itself.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 11, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

I'm going to take a different approach to addressing the topic today. I'm not going to read what has been said, as to not taint my view on the OP's question.

In a word...yes.

Bows are underpowered because a man hit with an arrow can be taken off his feet upon impact. A bow takes armor penetration to new heights ever since it was invented. The bow has speed when used properly, but not like a light melee weapon. However, the power of a bow should be re-evaluated. Not the base damage, but the types of attacks it can deal out.

Why not a knockdown arrow. Something while moving,perhaps. I don't need a 3 second KD with an arrow...I mean, its a damn arrow. Something similar to the warrior shout [skill=card]"None Shall Pass!"[/skill], but for 1 attacker running up. Give it a decent recharge rate. Make it move as fast as [skill=card]Savage Shot[/skill], hit like [skill=card]Punishing Shot[/skill], and non elite. Link it to expertise, so no one else can pimp it like a ranger can. Then, you can say you've started to make rangers viable to deal damage. Real Damage. The ranger fulfills its role as "The Jack Of Trades" rather well, but it never really did bow based damage well enough to say that it was its major weapon. Also, the bow skills of use and popular note are very limited.

1)Burning Arrow (6)Concussion Shot (11)Barrage
2)Crippling Shot (7)Savage Shot (12)Screaming Arrow
3)Poison Shot (8)Distracting Shot (13)Marauder's Shot
4)Punishing Shot (9)Keen Arrow (14)...
5)Prepared Shot (10)Needling Shot (15)...

I forget the last 2 bow skills that people use most, but I know that's about all of them. Everything else is a prep, a stance, or a trap, or a secondary skill.

13-15 arrow attacks worth using compared to how many total? That's just sad. Out of these bow attacks, usually 3 are on 70% of every ranger's bar who are playing. Savage,Burning,and Distracting. Everyone else(30%) mixes the others. However, the 13-15 skills of note, with the 3 mainstays, only goes to show how limited the ranger is within its own primary weapon. We all know that rangers aren't DPS dynamos, but they are known for condition spreading and interuption. That just brings more light to the argument. What ranger you have ever seen is known for his killing potential? Not 1 of the known or popular builds is a true killing threat with a ranger bow attack. Burning Arrow, and Prepared Shot are the only real damage dealing bow attacks of not that just do damage. Savage is a possible third, due to the chance for a critical hit, with Punishing bringing up the rear.

3 of those are elites, so only 2 of the 4 can be on any single bar at any given time.

The question was asked, the answer is given in plain black and white, now all that's left is for ANet to recognize the writing on the wall...err...screen.

haggus71 · Jul 11, 2007, 09:21 PM // 21:21

re:KD. KD skills were made for melee chars, to give them space when getting attacked and continuing their attack on their enemy. A ranger is usually an aggro circle away from such a fray(if he's any good). Conditions for slowdown(CS, et al) are plenty to keep the enemies away from the back line, and interrupts are fine against most casters.

most of those who complain about ranger skills tend to be new to the prof or, as was said before in the thread, tend to use cookie-cutter builds verbatim, ignoring what their own style might be.

If you want good KD or spike, get a war, maybe a derv. If you want to kill one guy, fast, get a sin with a good chain. If you want to spread conditions, interrupt casters, and weaken mobs for others to finish off, get a ranger. anything else is just asking for Anet to get rid of classes and have everyone be the same vanilla char.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 11, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

re:KD. KD skills were made for melee chars, to give them space when getting attacked and continuing their attack on their enemy. A ranger is usually an aggro circle away from such a fray(if he's any good). Conditions for slowdown(CS, et al) are plenty to keep the enemies away from the back line, and interrupts are fine against most casters.

most of those who complain about ranger skills tend to be new to the prof or, as was said before in the thread, tend to use cookie-cutter builds verbatim, ignoring what their own style might be.

If you want good KD or spike, get a war, maybe a derv. If you want to kill one guy, fast, get a sin with a good chain. If you want to spread conditions, interrupt casters, and weaken mobs for others to finish off, get a ranger. anything else is just asking for Anet to get rid of classes and have everyone be the same vanilla char.

When this type of post rears its ugly head, you know what you are dealing with.

"I used Barrage and interupts through all of Factions. I'm a good ranger!"

You're a blasphemous joker! To say that only warriors,sins,or dervs can spike or KD is the statement of ignorance incarnate, since Elementalists and monks can KD an opponent,too? Or have you forgotten?

Earthquake,stoning+enervating charge,signet of judgement,bane signet,shock...all those are for individual KDs, and not one hammer involved.

Spike, hell, the ranger made the spike. It took some doing to get the warriors to spike properly when rangers did it naturally. Rangers don't need no stinking IAS to spike, it was just brought to a better use by warriors, and now assassins. Ranger Spikes made the wammo, they were getting killed by rangers because the protection line wasn't being used, and everyone was a heal monk. Infuse was their best defense, while rangers whirling defense/lightning reflexed their way around them. R Spike dominated for its time, and is still doable, but just not prefered with more capable spikes available.

So why not give a ranger a KD arrow skill? You never made a valid reason for it not occuring? You just said use a melee to do it, when all but the mesmerand the ranger from the original 6 professions can KD. Paragons should KD with a spear,too. Why not? It's a spear in your chest! Dervs can do any number of things, since they are as close to a Warrior/Mage as GW has gotten. I think they have a spell KD, but I could be wrong, but they are very capable as is.

Unlike the ranger bow attacks. Prove me wrong with facts, and I'll eat my keyboard.

Evilsod · Jul 12, 2007, 02:49 AM // 02:49

I think the reason for people been knocked down when they were hit with an arrow is probably related to the immense pain they suddenly recieve when they are hit... you really can't form a case for a Ranger getting a knockdown purely because of what you think may occur in real life. A Hammer Warrior WOULD knockdown on every hit.

There are certain things that have severe penalties. The Hammer knockdowns either cost alot of adren, are conditional or lose all adrenaline and can be blocked. Elementalist knockdowns come with high recharges/costs or exhaustion or are conditional. The other type of knockdowns from the monk signets have a reasonably high recharge, 1 is conditional, 1 is elite.

Any such skill for a Ranger would have to be balanced so harshly it would be almost useless or it would be easily abused and way too strong (i could just imagine it now, BiP Necros fueling Experts Dexterity/Knockdown spam, lol). Not to mention when combined with a Rangers interrupts, a decent connection and good timing, anything can be interrupted after a KD since almost everyone will cast the moment they get up.

I don't want a KD skill as a ranger... it would be completely useless as far as PvE goes and would be severely limited because of PvP.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 12, 2007, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I think the reason for people been knocked down when they were hit with an arrow is probably related to the immense pain they suddenly recieve when they are hit... you really can't form a case for a Ranger getting a knockdown purely because of what you think may occur in real life. A Hammer Warrior WOULD knockdown on every hit.

There are certain things that have severe penalties. The Hammer knockdowns either cost alot of adren, are conditional or lose all adrenaline and can be blocked. Elementalist knockdowns come with high recharges/costs or exhaustion or are conditional. The other type of knockdowns from the monk signets have a reasonably high recharge, 1 is conditional, 1 is elite.

Any such skill for a Ranger would have to be balanced so harshly it would be almost useless or it would be easily abused and way too strong (i could just imagine it now, BiP Necros fueling Experts Dexterity/Knockdown spam, lol). Not to mention when combined with a Rangers interrupts, a decent connection and good timing, anything can be interrupted after a KD since almost everyone will cast the moment they get up.

I don't want a KD skill as a ranger... it would be completely useless as far as PvE goes and would be severely limited because of PvP.

I acknowledge your fears, but I feel sorry for your lack of vision. A KD arrow attack is justified by the merit of its real life application in just such a manner. Long recharge, not needed when the arrow attack is for a moving target only. High energy isn't a fear to a ranger where it would be for anyone else save an elementalist, and they have plenty of cheap KDs that cause exaustion. You don't want a KD attack for a ranger? Fine, then don't use it if they make one. Your opinion is appreciated, but you're alone in a dark room called "Conformity". Rangers have been begging for a skill like this for a long time. The reason they don't have a deep wound skill of their own is for the same reason you are championing not having a KD skill.

Fear. Fear of imbalance. Fear of abuse. Fear of a Ranger who can not only use the skills of others, but shines on his own with his own skills. We all agree( Most anyway) that the bow is weak and needs more done to make it viable. Yet, no one wants to take the step to make it so. Instead, we pick up everyone elses weapons and use them as rangers.

Sad. It's just purely sad.

Arrows dropping a target out of pain makes sense, arrows can even behead a man if with the right arrow point, but that's abit extreme for this conversation. My cause is a KD arrow skill. My cause is the betterment of the Bow in GW. I like being a pack hunter, but it shows that the bow is weak in comparison to the spear. I like being a Thumper, but it shows that the bow is weak compared to the application of the hammer with a ranger's expertise. I like trying to use swords and axes, but that shows that the ranger's primary weapon lacks.

How many rangers never depart from the bow? How many rangers have builds that have at least used all 30 bow attacks from markmanship at least once? Hell, who uses [skill=card]Arcing Shot[/skill]???? What you want to use and don't want to use isn't the big argument, nor is it what I want that makes things as they are, but the need to make the bow viable as a weapon is not just needed, but should be demanded. To have a weapon that can spread conditions but not truely be threatening is an insult to the ranger.

Oh, btw, no Hammer warrior KDs on every hit, just the applied attacks. So the hammer's weight has nothing to do with this argument. Hammers being heavy would justify the skills being made as they are, but an arrow can drop a man just the same from a distance.

Evilsod · Jul 12, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Come on stop trying to relate it to real life... i'm pretty sure that the scar patterns worn by a Necromancer provide slightly less than 60 AL. I'm also quite sure a ball of fire hitting you in the face would kill you.

A knockdown isn't going to improve anything...

Anyone expecting Wearying Shot from GWEN?

chesterocks7 · Jul 12, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I'm going to take a different approach to addressing the topic today. I'm not going to read what has been said, as to not taint my view on the OP's question.

In a word...yes.

Bows are underpowered because a man hit with an arrow can be taken off his feet upon impact. A bow takes armor penetration to new heights ever since it was invented. The bow has speed when used properly, but not like a light melee weapon. However, the power of a bow should be re-evaluated. Not the base damage, but the types of attacks it can deal out.

Why not a knockdown arrow. Something while moving,perhaps. I don't need a 3 second KD with an arrow...I mean, its a damn arrow. Something similar to the warrior shout [skill=card]"None Shall Pass!"[/skill], but for 1 attacker running up. Give it a decent recharge rate. Make it move as fast as [skill=card]Savage Shot[/skill], hit like [skill=card]Punishing Shot[/skill], and non elite. Link it to expertise, so no one else can pimp it like a ranger can. Then, you can say you've started to make rangers viable to deal damage. Real Damage. The ranger fulfills its role as "The Jack Of Trades" rather well, but it never really did bow based damage well enough to say that it was its major weapon. Also, the bow skills of use and popular note are very limited.

1)Burning Arrow (6)Concussion Shot (11)Barrage
2)Crippling Shot (7)Savage Shot (12)Screaming Arrow
3)Poison Shot (8)Distracting Shot (13)Marauder's Shot
4)Punishing Shot (9)Keen Arrow (14)...
5)Prepared Shot (10)Needling Shot (15)...

I forget the last 2 bow skills that people use most, but I know that's about all of them. Everything else is a prep, a stance, or a trap, or a secondary skill.

13-15 arrow attacks worth using compared to how many total? That's just sad. Out of these bow attacks, usually 3 are on 70% of every ranger's bar who are playing. Savage,Burning,and Distracting. Everyone else(30%) mixes the others. However, the 13-15 skills of note, with the 3 mainstays, only goes to show how limited the ranger is within its own primary weapon. We all know that rangers aren't DPS dynamos, but they are known for condition spreading and interuption. That just brings more light to the argument. What ranger you have ever seen is known for his killing potential? Not 1 of the known or popular builds is a true killing threat with a ranger bow attack. Burning Arrow, and Prepared Shot are the only real damage dealing bow attacks of not that just do damage. Savage is a possible third, due to the chance for a critical hit, with Punishing bringing up the rear.

3 of those are elites, so only 2 of the 4 can be on any single bar at any given time.

The question was asked, the answer is given in plain black and white, now all that's left is for ANet to recognize the writing on the wall...err...screen.

theres a reason the class is called "ranger" and not "archer". rangers are those who live in the wild. who know how to use nature to survive and hinder others. yes the bow is their primary weapon, but thats only because every class needs a primary weapon. rangers never were and never will be primary damage dealers. if you want to be an archer, take ranger as your secondary, and have some other class like warrior as your primary and just add the bow attacks to your attack buffing skills. dont complain because Anet didnt make the ranger something they arent.

Amy Awien · Jul 13, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

That's a nonsense argument. Rangers are what ANet made them to be, not because they're supposed to be one way or another.

But in your own way you've affirmed the notion that bows are underpowered in terms of damage.

chesterocks7 · Jul 13, 2007, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That's a nonsense argument. Rangers are what ANet made them to be, not because they're supposed to be one way or another.

But in your own way you've affirmed the notion that bows are underpowered in terms of damage.

Anet did not create the ranger, just like they did not create the warrior or assassin, they chose how to integrate it into their game. they obviously based it on an already extensively used idea. they did make them how they are because they were supposed to adhere to a certain idea. if they chose to make rangers heavily armored battle mages with massive destructive magics, just because thats how they wanted them, i dont think anyone would take them seriously, and the bows would be the least of your worries.

and no i have not confirmed the fact that bows are underpowered. underpowered means that they are objectively less powerful than they should be. ive only confirmed the fact that bows are less powerful than some people think they should be. i think bows are perfectly fine the way they are.

Tyla · Jul 14, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

underpowered?if i can get over 100 dmg and interrupt on crits (tried it on a sin and it DOES do over 100 dmg and interrupts)i think it will probably do alot more damage through ranger crit with some skill bar changes-> [skill]keen arrow[/skill] [skill]disrupting accuracy[/skill],possibly even carrying alot of conditions through certain skills [skill]poison arrow[/skill][skill]burning arrow[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]screaming shot[/skill] undepowered?i think not,not to mention damage increase [skill]glass arrows[/skill]

Evilsod · Jul 14, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

underpowered?if i can get over 100 dmg and interrupt on crits (tried it on a sin and it DOES do over 100 dmg and interrupts)i think it will probably do alot more damage through ranger crit with some skill bar changes-> [skill]keen arrow[/skill] [skill]disrupting accuracy[/skill],possibly even carrying alot of conditions through certain skills [skill]poison arrow[/skill][skill]burning arrow[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]screaming shot[/skill] undepowered?i think not,not to mention damage increase [skill]glass arrows[/skill]

Not the most well thought arguement...

Keen Arrow is 1 of the highest +damage skills in the game. A total of +58 at 16 Marksmanship. The only 1s i can think that match it are Final Thrust and Unsuspecting Strike. You have just proved nothing...

The conditions can only be applied once... Burning Arrow/Apply Poison been an obvious favourite choice because it does 100 damage in degen over 5 seconds. Find me another combo that does that... closest is Barbed Arrows/Poison Arrow and that build is a 1 trick pony with no additional damage.

Unless your spiking as far as PvP is concerned, Read the Wind or Apply Poison are better choices.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jul 15, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Come on stop trying to relate it to real life...

Have you ever heard of game physics? Game physics are fully rooted in the real world's science of physics in general, so to not relate things to real life when the physics of the game is generally based on real life physics is an oxymoronic concept.

Can I shoot through walls? No. Why? Because it wouldn't be possible in real life. Can I throw a fireball though a wall. No. Why because theoretically, a fireball is a projectile and has physical mass, hence hinting to physics, which again brings it back to roughly being comparable to real life projectiles.

You don't seem to see the blaringly obvious root to real life that video games have. Ignore it, if you wish, but that doesn't make it go away. As for the skills mentioned previously as "Damage Dealing" skills, you would have to also realize that the damage you are refering to is all based on condition degeneration, and not pure damage.

Make a better argument for yourselves. Saying that "Rangers" aren't "Archers" has to be the greatest statement of ignorance that I've every seen. They have Marksmanship, as well as skills in Expertise that are specifically for use with a bow. If that doesn't qualify as an "Archer", I don't know what would.

RhanoctJocosa · Jul 15, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

GWO FAILS.

They (and anyone else who thinks bows need to be buffed) don't understand how rangers work.

<3